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View Full Version : Giants looking to unload Zito...


kar120c
11-11-2008, 06:05 AM
Just saw this blog about Barry Zito...
http://danny-knobler.blogs.sportslin...90096/11620015

Does anybody want Barry Zito?

While the Giants' main focus this winter is on finding some way to add offense -- no surprise since San Francisco was 29th in the majors in runs scored -- they've also told teams that they'd love to dump Barry Zito.

"They're trying to give him away," said an official of one team that had spoken to the Giants. "I think they would eat as much money as it would take to get rid of him."

You can be sure it would take a lot. Zito has $101.5 million and five years still to go on the $126 million, seven-year deal he signed with the Giants two winters ago. Two years into that deal, Zito has lost his fastball and has also lost 30 games, going 21-30 with a 4.83 ERA for the Giants.

The Giants have decided to build their team around young starters Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain, and they've told teams both are untouchable in trade talks. Somehow, though, the Giants will need to find some hitters.

"They're starving for power at the corners," the official said. "They want a third baseman, a right fielder, a first baseman. They just need bats."


My take:

IMHO, Zito is a wild card (no, not wild pitcher - wild card). When he is bad, he is the Terminator of Terrible. He does not just get beat, he gets destroyed (Like Risse said, "He won't stop! He just keeps on coming! That's what he does!").

What make him so tough to watch is that he has days where one can easily see why he had so much success prior to joining the Giants. He has a wicked, knee buckiling curve. And he has good control over it. And he sets up hitters as well as that other guy that wins-with-less-than-awesome-stuff: Greg Maddux.

Zito's problem is two-fold: 1) his fastball velocity has decreased dramatically, and 2) his control has been poor as well. Good hitters will try to go up against his great curve, knowing that they have little to fear from his fastball (compare this to Lincecum and you see my point). Ordinary hitters just fight off his curve, and wait him out for a BB.

The key for Zito is to regain two things: 1) A small amount of velocity on his fastball - 88 to 90 would do it - he was around 85 in 2008. 2) Improved control that would keep him under 40 walks per 200 IP.

If he could do that, and the Giants could get him some runs (last year, a big if), he would win 15 to 18 games.

He would also prove to be the (mentally) toughest Giant. What he has been through the past two years - justified as it is - is something that very few players could deal with.

SF Kid
11-11-2008, 08:55 AM
:goodpost:

Very true. Zito, at least last year, Zito was either very good or very bad.

Reminds me of the Chicago Bears' Rex Grossman... Good Rex/Bad Rex. Ugh.

McCovey
11-11-2008, 10:32 AM
The thing is once a pitcher loses velocity on their fastball it NEVER comes back. It can't. The reason they lose thier fastball is because their arm had deteriated. The classic examples are Fank Tanana and Dwight Gooden. Zito's shot at success now is to be Jaime Moyer or John Tudor. But Zito has never had great control even when he was a Cy young caliber pitcher.

kar120c
11-12-2008, 05:45 AM
The thing is once a pitcher loses velocity on their fastball it NEVER comes back. It can't. The reason they lose thier fastball is because their arm had deteriated. The classic examples are Fank Tanana and Dwight Gooden. Zito's shot at success now is to be Jaime Moyer or John Tudor. But Zito has never had great control even when he was a Cy young caliber pitcher.
There is truth in what you say. I remember Frank Tanana. When he first came up, most people agreed he had the best arm on the (then) Californina Angels, including that other guy on that team - Nolan Ryan. Then he hurt his arm and had to learn how to pitch without velocity. He was able to make the transition. Gooden did not get hurt, but could not make the adjustments needed to go from thrower to pitcher when age dictated.

I don't put Zito in that class. Both Tanana and Gooden were flame throwers (FB=95+) who had a good #2 pitch (I had not seen a pitcher since Gooden who was that dominant until Tim Lincecum this year). I put Zito in the Tudor class. Tough, smart, crafty left hander that can tie an opposing batting order into knots (I remember Tudor giving those powerful Mets teams of the mid 80's - Carter, Herrnandez, Strawberry, Dykstra - fits).

The difference here is that Zito does not need to get to FB=95+ (he was never there in the first place). All he needs is to get to 88-90 - he is still young enough to do this (perhaps some modification in mechanics would help). And as for control, this is something that is related more to the mental approach thananything physical (which gets back to my point about his mental toughness).

From 2001-2006 with Oakland, Zito averaged some 170K and 85BB, in 220IP (for comparison, last year with SF, he was 120K and 102BB, in 180IP). If he could get back to his previous (hardly dominant) numbers, on a Giants team that could score 5 - 7 runs in the majority of his games, I believe he would be good for some 15 - 18 wins.

Again, IMHO.

McCovey
11-18-2008, 12:52 AM
Niether Zito nor Gooden got hurt in the normal sense. But their arms deteriorated because they pitched a lot of innings in their early 20s, especially Gooden. The Mets were stupid. They destroyed Gooden's arm. Check out his innings pitched from ages 19-23. Gooden pitched a ridicluous amount of innings and it ruined his arm. Gooden's best season came at age 20. His second best season was at age 19. his third best season was at age 21. After age 23 Gooden was just another pitcher. That is my concern for Lincecum. He was worked hard in '08. We shall see how he pitches in '09.

The thing that Tudor had that Zito doesn't have was outstanding control. Zito walked 102 batters in '08. He's not going to become Tudor and walk 35-40 guys a season overnight. Frankly, I don't Zito will ever have that kind of ocntrol. Shoot if Zito became Paul Byrd, I'd be very happy.

kar120c
11-19-2008, 09:31 AM
Niether Zito nor Gooden got hurt in the normal sense. But their arms deteriorated because they pitched a lot of innings in their early 20s, especially Gooden. The Mets were stupid. They destroyed Gooden's arm. Check out his innings pitched from ages 19-23. Gooden pitched a ridicluous amount of innings and it ruined his arm. Gooden's best season came at age 20. His second best season was at age 19. his third best season was at age 21. After age 23 Gooden was just another pitcher. That is my concern for Lincecum. He was worked hard in '08. We shall see how he pitches in '09.

The thing that Tudor had that Zito doesn't have was outstanding control. Zito walked 102 batters in '08. He's not going to become Tudor and walk 35-40 guys a season overnight. Frankly, I don't Zito will ever have that kind of ocntrol. Shoot if Zito became Paul Byrd, I'd be very happy.

Your analysis of Gooden is a good one. I saw him quite a bit of him in those days (I lived in NYC then) - here is my take:

When he came up (at 19!) he was dominant like no one I had seen (and I saw Seaver). The entire league, save one man, did not know what to do against him - reaching double digits in strikeouts during a game was the norm for him (believe it or not, the one man who seemd to hit him well was a Giant - Chili Davis. Davis was asked about this once, and said "He's not God, man!" Funny guy, that Chili Davis).

Gooden's fastball was dominant (upper 90's). His curveball was astounding (knee buckling). As he got into his late 20's, there were still days when his fatball was dominant and his curveball was astounding - but not as often. And Gooden always remained a fastball/curveball pitcher - unlike Seaver, for example, who developed some nasty offspeed stuff. Someone like Seaver was a true student of the game (not unlike Greg Maddux) - who would take feedback on his shortcomings and analyze/adjust. Gooden was not like that. He never changed his style, never developed new things (change-up, slider, splitter, etc).

And one more thing - unlike Seaver, but like his fellow extremely-talented teammate, Darryl Strawberry - Dwight Gooden fooled around with drugs (cocaine) during what should have been his prime. I do not know if this hindered his ability to concentrate and learn how to evolve as a pitcher (or, coincidentally, Strawberry's ability to improve as a hitter). But I do know that after his drug use came to light, he was not the same man - much less the same pitcher.

Yes, he had some limited success after he left the Mets, but his high water mark for wins after that was 11 - and that was while he was lucky enough to play on some powerful teams like the NYY and CLE in the late 90s. And he was out of baseball shortly after his 35th birthday.

And lastly, both he and Strawberry have had run-ins with the law (often drug related) after they left the game.

A pity, really.

jandajuice
11-22-2008, 11:47 AM
trade him away he lost it

Bear
11-22-2008, 12:20 PM
First tell me who wants him. That is the main problem. No one wants him. Even for free.:eek:

SF Kid
11-22-2008, 02:44 PM
For free I think we'd find some takers. Nobody is going to take his salary though.

McCovey
11-23-2008, 11:29 PM
Unfortunately, the Giants are stuck with Barry Zito. :rolleyes:

RrCoX22
12-05-2008, 03:38 AM
ya my jaw dropped when I first heard the new 2 years ago... i wanted nothing to do with this guy. and that's the complete truth. I will give him 2 more years and that's saying something... he's lucky he has 2 youngsters to look up to :pound:

TkleMstr52
12-06-2008, 02:26 AM
I look up to them two!! Damn, so short!!:bugeye: