2008 World Series

[Bear]

Here is the spot where we can talk about the series. I only hope we will have a thread like this within a few years where we can be talking about how the Giants are winning such an event.:o

[McCovey]

Ok, the Phillies are in. They looked strong against the Dodgers in the NLCS.

[SF Kid]

Tampa is looking unbeatable. But remember the RedSox beat the Yankees a few years ago four straight to get to the WS. Could history repeat itself? I doubt it but then that's why they play the games. Nobody will watch a Tampa/Philly WS so I assume the networks are hoping for some sort of miracle.

[Bear]

Tampa is looking unbeatable. But remember the RedSox beat the Yankees a few years ago four straight to get to the WS. Could history repeat itself? I doubt it but then that's why they play the games. Nobody will watch a Tampa/Philly WS so I assume the networks are hoping for some sort of miracle.

The Red Sox were a totally different team when they came back against the Yankees. I do not think they can do it again this time.:nono:

[McCovey]

The Red Sox were a totally different team when they came back against the Yankees. I do not think they can do it again this time.:nono:
With Davis Ortiz and Josh Beckett both having injury issues and no Manny Ramirez I say no way.

[SF Kid]

Yeah, the Sox are toast...just as I predicted. :p

[SF Kid]

So, do the Dodgers let Manny go now that they didn't get to the WS? Obviously they are a much better team with him there.

[Bear]

So, do the Dodgers let Manny go now that they didn't get to the WS? Obviously they are a much better team with him there.

Yes I say sign Manny. Pay him 25 Million per year and loose again in the playoffs or division. I would not sign Manny. As soon as he gets a big contract Manny will become Manny. And by that I mean loser;)

[McCovey]

So, do the Dodgers let Manny go now that they didn't get to the WS? Obviously they are a much better team with him there.
Supposedly, Scott Boras will be asking for a 5-6 contract at $20 million per season. If I were a GM and Boras called me to offer Manny's services I'd be like :excuseme: Then I would :pound:.

[McCovey]

It looks like the Phillies vs the Rays. The Rays would be the last of the 1990s expansion teams to reach the World Series.

[McCovey]

Errr....never mind. :( The Rays blew a 7-0 lead and lost 8-7. :rolleyes:

[Bear]

Errr....never mind. :( The Rays blew a 7-0 lead and lost 8-7. :rolleyes:


I can't stand it!:(

[McCovey]

I curious to see how the Rays repond to this heartbreaking loss.

[Bear]

I curious to see how the Rays repond to this heartbreaking loss.

With a win at Home on Saturday!:beerbang:

[McCovey]

With a win at Home on Saturday!:beerbang:
I sure hope so! :)

[McCovey]

I wonder how this week long layoff may affect the Phillies? Last year the Rockies were really hot in the playoffs and had an eight day layoff before the World Series. Then they tanked it in the World Series.

[McCovey]

I'm picking the Rays in 6 games. :beerbang:

[Bear]

I'm picking the Rays in 6 games. :beerbang:

Well we both see 6 games but I see it being the Phillies who win!:eek:

[McCovey]

The Rays are the far superior team IMO.

[SF Kid]

The Rays are the far superior team IMO.This may be true but I'm for one am not interested in watching. Now if the Giants were in the WS that would be a different matter. But they aren't so it's moot.

In many ways I am a causal baseball fan .. not like when I was a kid when baseball dominated my life. It's not as interesting anymore to me especially between September and the beginning of February.

Again...that's what's going on with American Sports. Like it or not that's what it is. Kinda of sad in a lot of ways but baseball doesn't seem to want to do anything about making the game more interesting for the average fan or potential fans. They're stuck in the 50's with the way they market their product; unwilling to make radical changes that would increase interest etc. One hundred sixty two games is just too long. You lose a game and it seemingly doesn't matter. There is always tomorrow. That's terrible. In the NFL or college football every single game is a must win. Fans (except the small core group of die hard fans and even they shrug off losses) can't focus on a season that is 162 games + playoff + the World Series.

What's the answer? I don't know nor do I have time to come up with ideas or scenarios that would/could make it better. It's just not important. That's how the typical fan feels even if they haven't thought about it much.

[McCovey]

This may be true but I'm for one am not interested in watching. Now if the Giants were in the WS that would be a different matter. But they aren't so it's moot.
Well, it goes without saying, Kid. This is a Giants forum. :D


In many ways I am a causal baseball fan .. not like when I was a kid when baseball dominated my life. It's not as interesting anymore to me especially between September and the beginning of February. Life is more busy as one gets older. It is hard to follow the game for us older guys than kids who have much more free time.


Again...that's what's going on with American Sports. Like it or not that's what it is. Kinda of sad in a lot of ways but baseball doesn't seem to want to do anything about making the game more interesting for the average fan or potential fans. They're stuck in the 50's with the way they market their product; unwilling to make radical changes that would increase interest etc. One hundred sixty two games is just too long. You lose a game and it seemingly doesn't matter. There is always tomorrow. That's terrible. In the NFL or college football every single game is a must win. Fans (except the small core group of die hard fans and even they shrug off losses) can't focus on a season that is 162 games + playoff + the World Series.Baseball has always had long seasons, even when you were a kid, Kid. Is a 154 game schedule that much different? The old Pacific Coast League had seasons that stretched out to 200 games in some years. Football is a completely different game. football players can;t play 162 game schedule. The sheer physical nature of the game does not allow for it.


What's the answer? I don't know nor do I have time to come up with ideas or scenarios that would/could make it better. It's just not important. That's how the typical fan feels even if they haven't thought about it much.I do agree the postseason is too long. They should do away with the divisional series and go back to two divisions in both leagues. I also wouldn't mind cutting back the schedule as well. I think 154 games is a nice number.

[Bear]

You like to say you are a casual fan, but truth be known that is far far from the truth. One you have forgotten more about baseball than most fans will ever know. Second you are mistaking being disillusioned with being casual. If the game was played as it was meant to be played we would not be having this conversation. :nono:

[SF Kid]

No I disagree about the post season being too long. The post season should be exhilarating not the culmination of a long drawn out ho-hum 162 game season that seems to drag on forever. The powers to be in baseball simply won't or maybe can't come to grips with the idea of completely revamping the regular season to inject more interest. I know it's never going to happen but something has to be done. In the olden days when we had a 154 game season (still too long) football was in it's infancy as a major threat to baseball. In 2008 there are so many things to interest young people that baseball is seen as boring and not something they will thrown themselves into like we did when were were kids. I'm a perfect example of this in real life. As a kid baseball was everything. I had a lot of time on my hands. Today it's different. How much energy can I put into trying to see the majority of 162 games. I never missed a game when I was a kid mostly on radio but still...(these days I can't even keep up on reading the articles Bear posts -- the Internet -- gotta love it.)

Times change but baseball has not stepped up to the plate (no pun intended) to address the problem of dwindling interest in a great game. Again I don't have the answers but somebody smarter than me should be concerned. As my generation passes on the youth ofd America are not filling in the gaps. On the other side of the coin the NFL is continually tweaking their game to make it more exciting for the fans, to encourage more scoring, to eliminate outdated rules (let's get rid of that "tuck" rule next) and procedures to make the game more appealing. I don't see that in baseball. Too many scared cows for my liking. Instant reply is a perfect example. The NFL has been using it for over 20 years. Baseball is just now addressing this technology.

I'm not hear to convince anybody that football is better. The results speak for themselves. But baseball better take their heads out of their asses and figure out how to inject some new interest in this game. The WS should be the most exciting thing going yet it's a footnote on most National sports shows.

[SF Kid]

You like to say you are a casual fan, but truth be known that is far far from the truth. One you have forgotten more about baseball than most fans will ever know.Well thanks for the compliment Bear but honestly I am a casual fan. You and Mc have brought me back to following the Giants a little more than casually but still the game has lost a lot of interest for me.

Second you are mistaking being disillusioned with being casual. If the game was played as it was meant to be played we would not be having this conversation.[/SIZE][/FONT] :nono:I'm not sure what this means but maybe you can expand on that.

[Bear]

You like to say you are a casual fan, but truth be known that is far far from the truth. One you have forgotten more about baseball than most fans will ever know. Second you are mistaking being disillusioned with being casual. If the game was played as it was meant to be played we would not be having this conversation. :nono:

Well thanks for the compliment Bear but honestly I am a casual fan. You and Mc have brought me back to following the Giants a little more than casually but still the game has lost a lot of interest for me.

I'm not sure what this means but maybe you can expand on that.

What I mean is players changing teams like underwear, players playing for the check and not for the love of the game, owners trying to squeeze every last penny from the fan, dumb ass commissioners, and I could go on for hours but it would depress me. You know what I am talking about.:(

[SF Kid]

:goodpost:

Oh yeah I get it. You're 100% on the money!

[McCovey]

This was posted on the the "other" site. It's hilarious! :pound:


This World Series matchup sucks. Disregard the fact that they had 97 and 92 wins and beat their opponents in the LDS and LCS, these are not the best teams in baseball. The best teams in baseball are determined by payroll, media attention, and how many people have heard of the players. In fact, I think we should dispense with the season entirely and award the championship based on those factors.

The same teams should be in the World Series every year, because baseball is a game of tradition and having different teams in the Series disrupts that tradition. Those teams should always be from the biggest cities like NY, LA, or Chicago, because the more people who are happy to see their team win the better. Tampa Bay fans are selfish for enjoying their team in the Series while places with more people don't get to.

Not the mention the fact that the TV ratings will be so low that the only people who watch might be actual baseball fans. The goodness of a World Series isn't defined by excitement or interesting teams, but the number of viewers. Same thing with payroll: having the teams with the 13th- and 29-highest payrolls is a mockery of the capitalistic system that's made America great, so anyone who enjoys this matchup is unAmerican.

[SF Kid]

Ha Ha.

[Bear]

This was posted on the the "other" site. It's hilarious! :pound:

Mc, is that from BBF?:eek:

[McCovey]

Mc, is that from BBF?:eek:
Yeah. And a couple guys thought he was serious! :pound:

[McCovey]

Hey Kid,

I think this article was writen for you! :p



Don't be a hater: This World Series is must-see TV

By Jonah Keri
Special to Page 2
Tuesday, October 21, 2008

When the first round of the MLB playoffs ended, the drumbeat for a Red Sox-Dodgers World Series began. Two storied franchises in two huge markets. The Red Sox versus Joe Torre, and Derek Lowe, and Nomaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh. And of course, the Red Sox versus Manny. This was going to be a World Series for the ages, we were told. All the ingredients were in place.

Well, we got our World Series for the ages, all right. But the Red Sox and Dodgers are playing golf, and Manny has been strapped to a chair, "A Clockwork Orange"-style, forced to watch dollar-sign images on a big screen until Scott Boras has successfully brainwashed him into demanding a $700 billion bailout contract.

Instead, it's the Phillies and Rays who stand poised to deliver one of the most entertaining World Series in baseball history. Who cares if the TV ratings won't be as high as they would have been for Red Sox-Dodgers. Here at Page 2, we're fired up to see two exciting teams do battle.

In honor of the Rays' improbable 31-game jump in the standings and No. 32 Steve "Lefty" Carlton, the greatest Phillies pitcher of all time, here are our top 31½ reasons to be excited about the World Series.

31½. Fox doesn't have the rights to "The Steve Harvey Show."

31. The Phillies' Game 3 starter (http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/moyerja01.shtml) made his major league debut when the Rays' two star (http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/longoev01.shtml) rookies (http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/priceda01.shtml) were less than a year old. Also, Jamie Moyer will be making the first World Series start of his 22-year career.

30. The Rays' hopefully-by-now-deposed closer is a four-alarm fire waiting to happen. If Dan Wheeler pitches in any meaningful situations, duck and take cover in the bleachers.

29. Because the Phillies have won fewer World Series titles than the following teams: The cursed Cubs, the formerly cursed White Sox, the no-winning-record-in-16-years Pirates, the expansion Blue Jays, and the far more recent expansion Marlins.

28. Drink three beers, then stare at the Phillie Phanatic in HD for 15 seconds. You'll see.

27. The fastest player on either team is a fan of Howard Zinn books (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/sports/baseball/05perez.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=fernando%20perez&st=cse&oref=login).

26. There's a chance -- albeit slim -- that the World Series will be decided by a popup that hits a catwalk at the Trop, is ruled fair and causes mass hysteria among nine fielders trying to catch the ricochet.

25. If the two teams brawl, or if the Rays win it all, nobody does a better job of sprinting out of the dugout to tackle someone than Jonny Gomes.

24. Let's see if Jimmy Rollins will make any bold predictions, be the third-best player on his own team, then get an MVP award when the Phillies win because he "backed it up."

23. Which Grant Balfour will show up: The shut-down stopper with an unhittable fastball, or the guy who painfully lives up to his last name?

22. Can exorcising the devil (http://weekendamerica.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/07/19/devil_rays/) help win a championship? We'll find out.

21. There's a better-than-even chance you'll hear Joe Maddon use one of the following words on camera: "ubiquitous" (cowbells at the Trop), "lugubrious" (how the Rays left Red Sox fans Sunday night) or "9=8ulous" (definition pending).

20. J.P. Howell, the most successful Howell we've seen on TV since these two (http://heykidscomics.com/blog_04170601.jpg).

19. Ryan Howard, one of only two players in baseball who's a threat to hit four homers or strike out four times every game he plays. (Guess the other and win a Jason Tyner bobblehead!)

18. To see which Rays team shows up: The regular-season squad with the best defense in baseball, or the one that started chucking throws into the third row of seats against the Red Sox.

17. Don Zimmer interviews.

16. Pat Burrell:</B> Lady-killer, or unintentionally hilarious? You decide (http://thebiglead.com/?p=8130#more-8130).

15. Carlos Pena, who's gone from minor league free agent to the face of a franchise in less than two years.

14. Rocco Baldelli: From the next DiMaggio, to disabled-list regular, to nearly dropping out of baseball, to playoff hero.

13. Will the Flyin' Hawaiian anger up another team's entire fan base?

12. David Price coming in for the eighth and ninth with his mid-90s fastball and vicious slider.

11. Brad Lidge coming in for the eighth and ninth with his mid-90s fastball, vicious slider, and Albert Pujols-related demons 99 percent exorcised.

10. Yankees payroll: $207 million. Red Sox payroll: $133 million. Rays payroll: $43 million.

9. On a team that might produce three straight NL MVP winners, Chase Utley is the best Phillie of them all.

8. Matt Stairs, the no-nonsense Canadian who admits he swings for a homer every time up, and says he'd rather score a goal in the Stanley Cup Finals than hit a game-winning homer in the League Championship Series. Stairs is also the author of my favorite quote of the season. After hitting his game-winning homer in Game 4 against the Dodgers, a reporter asked him (http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/20081014_Matt_Stairs__moment.htm) about his teammates' reception for him after he'd circled the bases: "Getting your hammered by guys, there's no better feeling," Stairs said.

[B]7. Cole Hamels, baseball's most underrated ace.

6. Evan Longoria, just a rookie, already a cornerstone player.

5. By this time next week, B.J. Upton may have broken every playoff hitting record in existence.

4. The director of pro scouting for the Phillies, also a former general manager for Tampa Bay, drafted Carl Crawford, James Shields, Andy Sonnanstine and Upton, traded for Scott Kazmir, drafted the players used to acquire Dioner Navarro (Toby Hall), J.P. Howell (Joey Gathright), Matt Garza and Jason Bartlett (Delmon Young), and signed Danys Baez, the player dealt for Edwin Jackson.

That's right, it's Chuck LaMar!

3. Seventh inning, series on the line. Charlie Manuel strolls to the mound to talk to his tiring starter, a shot at redemption staring him in the face.

2. No team in major U.S. team sports history has ever gone from having the worst record in the league one year to winning a championship the next. Four more wins and the Rays would rank among the biggest miracle teams of all time (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=miracles/081020).

1. Philadelphia sports fans are long overdue for some good news. Joe Carter versus Mitch Williams. Eric Lindros' career. A string of lousy Sixers teams. The freakin' Eagles. This city has suffered through a quarter-century of sports atrocities. Philly is due.

[Bear]

Hey Kid,

I think this article was writen for you! :p


No this is not for the Kid. He can't read an article that is that long. Anything longer than 10 words is too long. :nono::pound:

[SF Kid]

I'm still not interested.

What I would be interested in is that the Giants organization study what Tampa did to stock their team with young talent that can actually play and then do the same thing.

[Bear]

Phillies take game one. I think they will be too tough for the Rays. Final score 3-2.:(

[McCovey]

It was a good hard fought game. With the Phillies up 2-0 Upton hit a hard grounder with the bases loaded that turned int oa double play. That was close to a hit. I hope this turns into a great series.

[SF Kid]

I watched until I literally fell asleep in the 7th inning. At that point I said f^*# it. :o

GO GIANTS.

[Bear]

I watched until I literally fell asleep in the 7th inning. At that point I said f^*# it. :o

GO GIANTS.

You really are an old man. The 7th inning was around 8:45pm. What time do you take your teeth out and retire anyway? :rotf:

[McCovey]

Seriously, Kid, you thought the game was boring? :shrug: I thought it was well played tension filled game. Kazmir clearly had control problems but the Rays kept the game close throughout.

[SF Kid]

You really are an old man. The 7th inning was around 8:45pm. What time do you take your teeth out and retire anyway? :rotf:STFU.

Seriously, Kid, you thought the game was boring? :shrug: I thought it was well played tension filled game. Kazmir clearly had control problems but the Rays kept the game close throughout.Well yeah I did think it was boring. After it got to 3-2 that was it. I'll try it again tonight and see how it goes.

The Giants would be a better team to be playing Tampa. :o

[McCovey]

Well yeah I did think it was boring. After it got to 3-2 that was it. I'll try it again tonight and see how it goes.

The Giants would be a better team to be playing Tampa. :o
Are you still watching Game 2, Kid? It's 6:03 pm.

[SF Kid]

Yeah..it's getting boring. 4-0 Tampa. :rolleyes:

:rotf:

[Bear]

Are you still watching Game 2, Kid? It's 6:03 pm.

No, I am sure he is in his PJ's and Mrs. Kid has put him to bed with a warm bottle of milk! :pound::rotf:

[SF Kid]

As far as excitement this game is one step below soccer.

Bottom of 7 -- good nite! ;)

[Bear]

As far as excitement this game is one step below soccer.

Bottom of 7 -- good nite! ;)

Sweet dream Kid! Bye the way it's only 8pm.:pound:

[SF Kid]

Rain delay.

And that's what they get for playing BASEBALL at the end of October and maybe into November. Jeeeez. :mad:

Doesn't matter though I'm watching Ohio State / Penn St. anyway. Terrific game so far. Hard hitting defenses.

GO PHILLIES.

[SF Kid]

I just switched from the football game (13-6 Penn St - Final) and the Phillies are ahead 2-1 in the fourth. Jamie Moyer looks like he's 100...:bugeye:

[SF Kid]

I think Bear could hit that 70 MPH fastball. :pound:

[Bear]

10-2 Phillies and it looks like their year. Ryan Howard has 2 HR's tonight.:eek:

[SF Kid]

Yeah looks like somebody woke up the sleeping Giant -- Ryan Howard.

Phills might as well put an end to it right now and send the little boys packing back to Tampa. We'll see if next season if Tampa is real or Memorex™. I'm still not a believer. Teams do this all the time. They have some sort of miracle season (see Cards and Rockies) and then it's back to reality the very next season. I know I'm gonna hear ``but the Rays are young and talented"... We'll see.

[Bear]

Yeah looks like somebody woke up the sleeping Giant -- Ryan Howard.

Phills might as well put an end to it right now and send the little boys packing back to Tampa. We'll see if next season if Tampa is real or Memorex™. I'm still not a believer. Teams do this all the time. They have some sort of miracle seasons (see Cards, Rockies and the Bear sucks) and then it's back to reality the very next season. I know I'm gonna hear ``but the Rays are young and talented"... We'll see.

Well I can at least agree on the Raiders!:pound:

[McCovey]

Yeah looks like somebody woke up the sleeping Giant -- Ryan Howard.

Phills might as well put an end to it right now and send the little boys packing back to Tampa. We'll see if next season if Tampa is real or Memorex™. I'm still not a believer. Teams do this all the time. They have some sort of miracle season (see Cards and Rockies) and then it's back to reality the very next season. I know I'm gonna hear ``but the Rays are young and talented"... We'll see.
Grated, the Rockies were just a fluke team. But the '06 Cardinals were not. Yes, the Cardinals did not have a great won-loss record (83-78). However, there were unique circumstances to their situation. The 2004-05 Cards won 205 games (105 wins in '04 and 100 wins in '05). That is a lot of wins. The '06 team was mostly the same team. They battled a large number of injuries throughout the season to many of their key players. They got off to a great start in '06. At the end of May they were 34-19 (104 win pace) and looked very much like the team that had won 205 games the previous two seasons. Then the injuries came. They went 9-16 in June then rebounded a bit in July going 15-11. Through the end of July the Cards were 58-46. Then more injuires derailed them in August and September and the Cards went just 25-32 over the final two months of the season. It wasn't until late September than they got most of their key players back and healthy. To me the Cardinal team in the post season was closer in terms of quality to the '04-'05 teams than than their '06 regular season would suggest.

As for the Rays they are nothing like the '07 Rockies. The '07 rockies had to win 13 of their last 14 just to get to 89 wins and had to play the Padres in a one game playoff just to sqeak into the post season. The Rays won 97 games playing in the same division as the Red Sox and Yankees who have by far the two highest payrolls. The beat the defending World Series champs in the ALCS. They have tremendous young talent that the Rockies simply lack plus they have a great management in place. Their season isn't that much of a miracle. Many people predicted the Rays would win 85-90 wins in '08. The Rays could have had 85 wins and still finish 10 games out but their season would have been seen as major progress. What was surpising was that they won the division and beat both the Red Sox AND Yankees. Now, saying all this, obviously, there is no guarantee that they will have the same success again in '09. However, if their key players have normal development and no major injuries I would be shocked if they didn't win 90 games in '09.

[SF Kid]

I respect what you're saying there Mc but still I'll have to have them prove me wrong. I don't see Tampa winning the East again next year. They might but I doubt it. Personally I think it'll be a long time before Tampa is in the WS again. Hey, but what if they win three straight and take this thing? That would be something to write home about.

Don't forget, now that Tampa has risen from the ashes these players are going to want to get paid. That always causes problems with these no name teams that have a little success. That ought to be interesting. I hate FA.

[McCovey]

I respect what you're saying there Mc but still I'll have to have them prove me wrong. I don't see Tampa winning the East again next year. They might but I doubt it. Personally I think it'll be a long time before Tampa is in the WS again. Hey, but what if they win three straight and take this thing? That would be something to write home about.
Sure. Like I said before the Rays could win 90 games in '09 and finish third. It all depends on what the Red Sox and Yankees do. The Yankees are a mess right now. They have all these huge salaries and older players. They are not going to be able to buy their way out of the current mess. The Red Sox are in a better position with some good young talent.


Don't forget, now that Tampa has risen from the ashes these players are going to want to get paid. That always causes problems with these no name teams that have a little success. That ought to be interesting. I hate FA.
This is true but it's not going to happen in '09. Logoria is a rookie and will not be a FA until 2014. David Price just debuted in September so he won't be an FA until after 2015. Kazmir is signed through 2011 with a team option for 2012. Upton won't become a FA until after the 2012 season. High salaries will not be an issue for the Rays until probably 2011-12. So the Rays do have a window of opportunity before they have to think long and hard about what players to sign and who to let go. A great unknown is if and when they get their new ballpark. Also, is their owner willing to pay big money to at least keep some of the core players? We shall see. The 1991 Braves were also a no-name team yet they were able to keep a good group of core players together for many seasons.

[SF Kid]

I feel some "I want my contract renegotiated" coming sooner than 20011. ;) It's the way pro sports works these days.

[Bear]

I feel some "I want my contract renegotiated" coming sooner than 20011. ;) It's the way pro sports works these days.

I hate to say it but when it comes to "contracts" the Kid is right on!

[McCovey]

I feel some "I want my contract renegotiated" coming sooner than 20011. ;) It's the way pro sports works these days.
Sure they can ask but MLB is not the NFL. Think about it. Can you think of any ballplayer in recent times that staged a walk out or didn't come to spring training because he wanted his contract renegotiated? Seriously, I can't think of any. That crap happens all the time in the NFL but it doesn't really happen in the MLB. I think the reason is because baseball players have arbitration and football players don't. Upton will not a FA until after 2012 but he'll be eligible for arbitration after 2010. So, his salary will increase probably into the $5-$6 million range. But he'll have to wait until FA to get the the really huge contract.

Also, I wanted to comment about how the Rays might develop. You are right that there is no guarantee that the Rays will continue to be good. The 1991 Braves were able to to do. But others have not. The 1950 Phillies were in a similar situation, tons of great young talent, came out of nowhere to win the NL pennant, had two Hall of Famers. But after 1950 they did nothing.

[SF Kid]

Holy shit. You wonder what's wrong with baseball? We've never had to know before since there has never been a rain out of a World Series game but it's an absolute joke that MLB has no provision for deciding what to do IF there is a rain out. I mean I'm just unbelieving that once again baseball is making things up as they go along making a joke of this year's WS just like the debacle they had several years ago at the All Star game. Wasn't it declared a tie or something?

How can these old fuckers not have a policy in place in case it rains during the World Series? How is that possible? I guess they deserve what they get for having this crap linger on into the very end of October. Hey, it rains at the end of October and into November. Duh.

So are people going to be all jazzed up about rushing home to see if the last 3 1/2 innings are played tonight? I don't think so. I heard it was actually snowing in Philadelphia this morning. I surely could care less at this point. And why would they not call the game after the 5th inning with Philadelphia leading 2-1 instead of playing another half inning in horrible conditions and THEN calling it off? That's frankly unfair. Both teams should be subject to to the same conditions. But not with MLB. What a bunch of buffoons.

[McCovey]

Kid,

Do you just look for things to rant about? ;)

Some points:

1) The game was suspended not called. A called game is a final, game over. What if the Phillies we ahead then the game was called? It would have been even dumber to hand the Phillies the Word Series title on a called game.

2) There are rules in space to handle this situation. Selig didn't make up rule on the fly.

from ESPN.


Baseball has changed its rule on suspended games several times.
Prior to 1980, the rule in this situation said that if a game was called after the visiting team tied the score or went ahead, and the home team had not finished batting, the score would have reverted to what it was before the inning. The rule was changed after the Baltimore Orioles (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/clubhouse?team=bal) beat the visiting Yankees 3-0 on Aug. 13, 1978, when New York scored five runs in the top of the seventh only to have them wiped out because of the weather.

Under the new rule, when the visiting team scored to tie or go ahead and the inning wasn't completed, the game was suspended.

If the Phillies had completed the sixth inning without scoring, it would have been an official tie game under the rule from 1980-2006 and would have been replayed from the start. But under the rule change made in November 2006, if that had happened now, it would have been a suspended game, too, because ties were eliminated starting with the 2007 season.


3. The 1962 World Series had tons of rain in San Franciso. There were five days between games 5 and 6.

[Bear]

Kid,

Do you just look for things to rant about? ;)

Some points:

1) The game was suspended not called. A called game is a final, game over. What if the Phillies we ahead then the game was called? It would have been even dumber to hand the Phillies the Word Series title on a called game.

2) There are rulesin space to handle this situation. Selig didn't make up rule on the fly.

from ESPN.



3. The 1962 World Series had tons of rain in San Franciso. There were five days between games 5 and 6.

Even though the Kid was alive and following the 1962 series he can't remember what happened except that the Giants did not win. Remember the Kid is no Kid he is an Old Man! His name should be SF Old Fart!:pound:

[McCovey]

There will be no game 5 tonight. It's still pouring in Philadelphia. :(


Phils, Rays to resume Game 5 on Wednesday night

By BEN WALKER, AP Baseball Writer
10/28/2008

PHILADELPHIA – In the middle of all this World Series chaos, Joe Maddon sounded rather calm. Bumped to a hotel in Delaware until Game 5 resumes Wednesday night — if the weather cooperates — the Tampa Bay manager and his young team rode out the storm together. "I referred to it as kind of like getting snowed in, if I could go back to my roots," said Maddon, raised in nearby Hazleton, Pa.

Rain put the Series on hold Monday night, with the Phillies and Tampa Bay Rays suspended in the sixth inning with the score 2-all.

More rain and possible snow showers were expected Tuesday, so commissioner Bud Selig said Game 5 was tentatively set to resume at 8:37 p.m. Wednesday night.

"While obviously we want to finish Game 5 as soon as possible, the forecast for today does not allow for us to continue the game this evening," Selig said. "We are closely monitoring tomorrow's forecast and will continue to monitor the weather on an hourly basis. We will advise fans as soon as we are able to make any final decisions with respect to tomorrow's schedule."
The forecast for Wednesday called for clearing skies by the early afternoon, with temperatures in the upper 30s by night.

The Phillies lead three games to one, needing one more win for their first championship since 1980. There has never been a rain-shortened game in Series history, and this was the first suspension.


"I can't tell you tonight when we'll resume," Selig said Monday night when the suspension was announced. "We'll stay here if we have to celebrate Thanksgiving here."
By the time Carlos Pena hit a tying, two-out single in the sixth for the Rays, every pitch and every hit had become an adventure.
"It was terrible. The field wasn't bad, but it was the worst conditions I've ever played in," Tampa Bay third baseman Evan Longoria said.


A puddle formed on home plate and umpire Jeff Kellogg resorted to using a towel rather than the usual whisk broom to wipe it clean.

Batters kept blinking back the rain drops and pitchers struggled with their footing. Strong gusts dropped the wind-chill factor into the 30s, and fielders covered their bare hands between pitches.

All-Star shortstop Jimmy Rollins of the Phillies chased a popup all over and dropped it for a tough error in the fifth. There were pools of water at every base and the Phillie Phanatic wore a rain slicker for his routine.

"The infield was tough. The ball would do funny things," Phillies second baseman Chase Utley said. "It was in bad shape. It was not playable."
Whenever this one resumes, it will pick up where it left off, with the Phillies about to bat in the bottom of the sixth.

Ace pitcher Cole Hamels is set to lead off for the Phils. For sure, the Phillies will send up a pinch-hitter against Grant Balfour, who'd previously relieved starter Scott Kazmir.

Then what? Do the Rays counter with another pitcher, and immediately pull Balfour?

If Pena had not tied it, Selig said he would not have let the Phillies win with a game that was called after six innings.


"It's not a way to end a World Series," he said. "I would not have allowed a World Series to end this way."

Fine by the Rays.

"The World Series always should be decided by nine innings with somebody making the final out, not the weather or natural disasters or whatever," reliever Trever Miller said. "That's what fans pay to see. That's what we work hard for all year."

Tuesday was supposed to be a travel day, if necessary. Instead, the teams will stay in the area and then head back to Tropicana Field if the Rays win.
The delay, however, forced the Rays to find a comfortable hotel in Wilmington, Del., about 25 miles away.

About 10 minutes after the game was officially suspended, an announcement was made telling fans wrapped in plastic sheets they were done for the night.

By then, many had left their seats and streamed into the concourses. They crowded six or seven deep, trying to see any of the game before the umps signaled for the tarp.

Because it was only lightly raining when the game started, MLB hoped it could play a full nine innings. It quickly became apparent this rain wouldn't quit.

By the middle innings, the grounds crew was running shuttles onto the field, carrying bags of a drying agent — baseball's version of cat litter — to absorb the water.
No luck.

"A lot of guys couldn't believe we were still playing," Rays shortstop Jason Bartlett said.

B.J. Upton beat out an infield hit with two outs in the sixth on a ball that Rollins bobbled. Upton stole second and made an impressive dash home on Pena's hit, navigating the slippery basepaths and sliding in when left fielder Pat Burrell's throw plopped into a puddle.

Fans showed up hoping they'd be witnesses to a World Series championship. Shane Victorino got them cheering with bases-loaded single in the first for a 2-0 lead off Kazmir.

Maddon tinkered with his lineup, dropping the slumping Pena and Longoria one spot each — they were a combined 0-for-29 with 15 strikeouts after four games.

The Tampa Bay stars ended their hitless ruts in the fourth when Pena doubled off the right-field wall and Longoria followed with an RBI single up the middle that made it 2-1.

A few innings later, it was time to go.

"You couldn't do anything you normally do out there," Rays outfielder Carl Crawford said.

[Bear]

The Kid is now kicking his dog "Selig"!:pound:

[McCovey]

The Kid is now kicking his dog "Selig"!:pound:
:pound:

[SF Kid]

So Mc...why then was there so much drama last night and this morning? NOBDOY seemed to know what the rule is. Why wasn't it called and considered a complete game --after the bottom of the 5th? That is how all games in MLB are decided as far as I can see. Phillies win the series 4-1. But because it's their blessed World Series they just couldn't follow the rules that apply to every game that completed 5 1/2 innings. They decide to "suspend" a game only when it fits their agenda? Why? That's just simply ridiculous. But then having different dimensions for every ball park is just as stupid and they embrace that.

Badseball can't stop stepping on their dicks. Period. I'm sick of it.

They should have clear and defined rules on how WS games will be handled (since clearly they think it should be handled differently) in case of rain. The argument that there hasn't ever been a rain out in the WS is pure bullshit. Did Brain Sabean make up that crap? Sounds just like him.

Anyway baseball has more egg on their faces as far as the majority of the country goes. Nobody even cares any more.

[McCovey]

So Mc...why then was there so much drama last night and this morning? NOBDOY seemed to know what the rule is. Why wasn't it called and considered a complete game --after the bottom of the 5th? That is how all games in MLB are decided as far as I can see. Phillies win the series 4-1. But because it's their blessed World Series they just couldn't follow the rules that apply to every game that completed 5 1/2 innings. They decide to "suspend" a game only when it fits their agenda? Why? That's just simply ridiculous. But then having different dimensions for every ball park is just as stupid and they embrace that.
So you would have no problem with the Phillies winning a five inning Game 5 simply because that's how it's done in the regular season? This is the World Series and not the regular season, A five inning Phillies victory would cheapen a Phillies World Series title. Even the Phillies have said they don't want to win a World Series title that way. Selig did the right thing IMO. If you believe he did the wrong thing then what should he have done instead? :shrug:


Badseball can't stop stepping on their dicks. Period. I'm sick of it.

They should have clear and defined rules on how WS games will be handled (since clearly they think it should be handled differently) in case of rain. The argument that there hasn't ever been a rain out in the WS is pure bullshit. Did Brain Sabean make up that crap? Sounds just like him.

Anyway baseball has more egg on their faces as far as the majority of the country goes. Nobody even cares any more.
I don't understand why it's a big deal that Selig suspended the game? Why is that so horrible even if the rules were not clear? They were clear to both teams and the umpires. They will continue when the weather clears. Why is that a problem? :shrug: Like I said before there was a five day delay of the World Series in 1962. Does anyone even remember that?

[SF Kid]

The fact is MLB should have their rules in order to cover eventualities like this. The way the rules are and the way the games are played all the time, yes, the series was over and the Phillies should win. Moot point. The rules are the rules and shouldn't be left for interpretation whenever it fits somebody's else point of view. It's so simple to clarify that the WS will be handled differently and then it's no problem . Why is that so hard for baseball to get right?

Anyway that's that. Guess it really doesn't matter.

[McCovey]

Some history on rain and the World Series.


World Series Has Been Down Wet Paths in the Past

By ALAN SCHWARZ (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/alan_schwarz/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
October 29, 2008

As with financial crises and crucial elections, it is tempting to view the current World Series rain mayhem as particularly historic. But the Series has been down roads far more wet — and bumpy — than this, complete with accusations of cheating, television posturing and, almost 100 years ago, labor strife.

The granddaddy of all World Series rainouts took place in 1911 in Philadelphia, naturally. Weather delayed Game 4 for an entire week. And the rest of the series was not nearly as eventful as the gameless break.
Hostilities were already high as the Philadelphia Athletics (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/oaklandathletics/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and the New York Giants (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/profootball/nationalfootballleague/newyorkgiants/index.html?inline=nyt-org) traveled back to Philadelphia’s Shibe Park with the A’s leading, two games to one. Christy Mathewson, the Giants’ otherwise gentlemanly ace, had accused A’s groundskeepers of wetting the infield in Game 2 to slow down New York’s famous running game. In what was perhaps a related incident, the Giants’ Fred Snodgrass spiked the popular A’s third baseman Frank Baker and left him a bloody mess.

When Game 4 was called twice by rain so hard that one person suggested covering the field with oil and setting it afire — Connie Mack, the A’s manager and owner, demurred because he did not want to hurt the grass — Snodgrass found himself trapped in a less-than-friendly city of Philadelphia. Furious Baker fans gathered outside the Giants’ hotel and threatened him whenever he emerged; Giants Manager John McGraw finally told Snodgrass to take the train back to New York until play resumed.

“The absence of Snodgrass from the Majestic Hotel, the Giants’ headquarters, set a wild rumor afloat this afternoon that an irate fan had attempted to shoot Snodgrass,” The New York Times reported. Another false rumor centered around whether Baker’s spike wounds had become infected and caused blood poisoning.

This was not even the last controversy of the week, during which Giants players grumbled about McGraw’s interrupting billiards and card games by making them work out to stay sharp. During the delay, the National Commission, the era’s version of Major League Baseball, ordered players on both clubs to pose for a motion-picture company that would distribute the film to theaters over the winter. Several Giants refused to participate without any cut of the profits.

“Baseball with them is a business, they say, and they don’t propose to furnish pictorial entertainment for the whole country just for the love of having their pictures taken,” The Times reported. The dispute was apparently resolved, and the A’s finally won the series in six games.
The next lengthy delay in a World Series came in 1962, after Game 5 between the San Francisco Giants (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/sanfranciscogiants/index.html?inline=nyt-org) and the Yankees (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/newyorkyankees/index.html?inline=nyt-org) was postponed in New York for a day. (One teenage Yankees fan complained that by attending four previous World Series games at the Stadium, he had run out of grandparent-funeral excuses for missing school.) Game 5 was played the next day, and the Yankees took a three-games-to-two lead, but a torrential set of storms greeted the two teams after they flew back to San Francisco.

Yankees Manager Ralph Houk was able to move Whitey Ford up to Game 6 because of the first day’s delay.

“Ford will pitch this upcoming sixth game come hell or high water,” Houk said, looking out on increasingly high water as the weather did not let up.
Trapped in their hotel rooms for another day because of strong rain and 40-mile-per-hour winds, players complained that they might as well have been on Alcatraz. When the game was postponed for a third day — in bright sunshine — because Candlestick Park was too waterlogged, both teams drove 80 miles east to Modesto to work out.

Ford actually lost Game 6, 5-2, setting up a climactic Game 7. That turned out to be one of baseball’s most exciting games, with the Yankees’ Ralph Terry beating the Giants, 1-0, and the game ending with Willie McCovey’s lineout to Bobby Richardson.

Coincidentally, another of baseball’s greatest games had soggy roots in the rain: Game 6 of the 1975 World Series, won by the Boston Red Sox (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/bostonredsox/index.html?inline=nyt-org) in the bottom of the 12th on Carlton Fisk (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/f/carlton_fisk/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s home run.

The Red Sox and Cincinnati Reds (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/cincinnatireds/index.html?inline=nyt-org) arrived in Boston to a nor’easter and waited as Friday’s scheduled Game 6 was postponed two days in a row. On Sunday, when clearing seemed imminent but Fenway Park remained drenched, Commissioner Bowie Kuhn had to decide whether to try playing the next night — squarely against “All in the Family” on CBS and a new sensation called “Monday Night Football” on ABC — or postpone Game 6 all the way to Tuesday.

When Kuhn told the Times columnist Red Smith that he preferred night games “to better accommodate the fans,” Smith accused M.L.B. of kowtowing to the networks.

“Exposing cash customers to raw night cold is a novel way of accommodating them,” Smith said. “Accommodating TV sponsors at prime time is something else again.”

Meanwhile, with Fisk still just a good catcher and not yet a New England icon, the Reds (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/sports/baseball/majorleague/cincinnatireds/index.html?inline=nyt-org) decided to try to stay sharp by working out inside Dussault Cage at Cousens Gymnasium on the campus of Tufts University (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/t/tufts_university/index.html?inline=nyt-org). While pitchers worked off a portable mound plopped down on the running track, Pete Rose (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/r/pete_rose/index.html?inline=nyt-per) and Joe Morgan bashed line drives into fishnets hung from the ceiling.

Why Tufts? Reds Manager Sparky Anderson was asked.

“I think Harvard would be a little over my head,” he replied.

The sky over everyone’s heads soon cleared, and the Series played on.

[SF Kid]

Almost forgot about the game. I tuned in just in time...2 out in the 9th with two strikes on the batter. Done deal.

You gotta love the Philadelphia fans...they booed Selig...hahahaha and when the Philly owner congratulated the Rays they boooooooed the Rays whole team....hahahahah. Beautiful. What a piece of work that fan base is...LOL.

[McCovey]

Congrats to the Phillies Phillies on their second World Series title in franchise history. :awesomework.gif

[Bear]

It's over, and even though I enjoyed the series I must say for the first time in years I am happy the season is complete. Now the off season can begin in earnest, and the Giants can go about their business of continuing to rebuild this team. Lets all hope the do this in a thoughtful manner, and make the franchise proud. :beerbang:

[McCovey]

Rob Neyer's take on the '08 World Series champion Phillies.


Moyer, Lidge driving forces behind Phils' success

Rob Neyer, ESPN
Thursday, October 30, 2008

What would have been more surprising?

The Phillies winning the World Series? Or the Rays? In this case the obvious answer is the right answer. I can't seem to find my predicted standings for this season, but I do have my Predictatron (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/pt/rules.php) ballot. I predicted 84 wins for the Phillies and 81 for the Rays. Considering the presumed extra difficulty of earning a postseason berth in the American League, it's pretty clear that the Rays would have been a bigger surprise.

What's more, the Phillies really aren't as surprising as that 84-win prediction might suggest. If you'll pardon a bit of mathiness … the standard deviation for team wins is roughly six. Essentially, that means if you know everything about a team -- how good the players are, how often they'll play -- unless you can predict the utterly unpredictable you should feel good about your prediction if you're within six wins at season's end.

Well, I missed by eight wins. Not including the additional 11 this month.

Where did my 84-win prediction go wrong? What's the difference between the Phillies who were supposed to finish third (behind the Mets and the Braves) and the Phillies who won the World Series?

This question isn't as hard to answer as you might guess. With almost every regular hitter doing roughly what we might have expected, it's really all about the pitchers. And with apologies to Chad Durbin (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4210) (and his 2.87 ERA), it's really all about just two pitchers: Jamie Moyer (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=1799) and Brad Lidge (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=5102).

Last year, Moyer (1) went 14-12 with a 5.01 ERA, and (2) turned 44 years old. This year, he went 16-7 with a 3.71 ERA (and turns 46 next month). By virtually any reasonable measure, this was Moyer's best year since he was a 40-year-old Mariner.

Last year, Lidge spent a month on the DL and didn't pick up his first save until a week after the All-Star break. After winning the big job, he posted a 4.75 ERA and converted only 19 of 24 save opportunities.

Typically, a top closer -- as opposed to a guy with a 4.75 ERA -- will blow five or six saves per season. Joe Nathan (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4044) was incredible this season. He's incredible every season. But even Joe Nathan blew six saves this season, and four last season. His team lost seven of those games. So we might guess that even great closers -- say, the best in the majors not named Mariano Rivera (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=3240) -- will blow five saves per season, and their teams will lose three or four of those games.

This year, Brad Lidge didn't blow a single save all season. The Phillies never lost one of those games.

Of course, it wasn't just Lidge. In addition to Durbin, Ryan Madson (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=5382) and J.C. Romero (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=4202) and Clay Condrey (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?playerId=5306) all pitched well, and that goes a long way toward explaining how the Phillies went 86-0 during the regular season in games they led after seven innings.

But I look at the Phillies and what they accomplished, and I ask myself what I didn't see before the season, and it comes down to Moyer and Lidge. I didn't think Moyer could win 16 games and I didn't guess that Lidge would convert 100 percent of his save opportunities. And there's your eight extra wins right there.

Congratulations, Phillies: You fooled me. Watch yourselves, though. Next spring I'm going to nail it.

[SF Kid]

You know, I'm actually happy for Jamie Moyer. That's a pretty cool story!